Creator: Jack Shingleton, Jeff Charnley

Subjects: Anniversaries, Sesquicentennial

Date: September 19, 2000

Format: Text/pdf

Original Format: Word Document

Resource Identifier: Shingleton, Jack.pdf

Collection Number: UA 3

Language: English

Rights Management: Educational use only, no other permissions given. Copyright to this resource is held by Michigan State University and is provided here for educational purposes only. It may not be reproduced or distributed in any format without written permission of the University Archives & Historical Collections, Michigan State University.

Contributing Institution: University Archives & Historical Collections, MATRIX, Office of the Provost

Relation: Sesquicentennial Oral History Project

Contributor: MSU Archives and Historical Collections

Text File: Download

Transcript:



Charnley: Today is Tuesday the 19th of September, the year 2000. We're in East Lansing, Michigan. I am Jeff Charnley, interviewing John D. Shingleton, for the MSU [Michigan State University] Oral History Project for the sesquicentennial of the university, which is going to be commemorated in the year 2005.
As you can see, we're tape-recording today, Mr. Shingleton. Do you give us permission to tape this interview?

Shingleton: Yes.

Charnley: I'd like to start first with your personal background. Where were you born and where did you go to school?

Shingleton: I was born in Wyandotte, Michigan, in 1922, and I went to various schools. As far as high school was concerned, I attended Henry Ford Trade School, which was sort of a private school Henry Ford won. And then, subsequently, went to Western Michigan College for a year and a half until World War II came along, and then I joined what was then called the Army Air Corps, and served three and a half years in the military as a pilot, serving about a year and a half overseas, in the Pacific. And then came back.
I had started at Western Michigan College, as I said, before the war. When I came back, I came back to Michigan State University, because Western didn't have the courses that I wanted in a particular field. So I ended up graduating from Michigan State in 1948. I went to other schools, Duchenne University, while I was in the service, and so forth, but those were only short stints.

Charnley: What type of planes did you fly during the war?

Shingleton: I flew C-46s, C-47s, had a little B-25 time. Mostly troop transport, with paratroopers and taking casualties and nurses and priority personnel into the various areas and bringing them out.

Charnley: We've asked all the veterans that we've interviewed so far, regarding the GI Bill. Did you use the GI Bill?

Shingleton: Oh, certainly.

Charnley: What was the campus like when you returned after the war?

Shingleton: Well, it was a beautiful campus. It was primarily on the north side of the Red Cedar River. Before the war, it had been approximately, I don't know, six, seven thousand students. I wasn't there at that time. But when I came back, it was 14,000, and mostly GIs. At least the males were mostly GIs. We had a very acute shortage of housing, with the net result that many of the GIs, in the early stages, slept, literally, in Jenison Fieldhouse. They had double-decker beds there, in the basketball courts.
I was then married at that time, and my wife and I lived in a room, by the grace of a professor, for three months, until we got housing in a trailer, which we thought we were really living pretty high on the hog when we could have the privileges of living in a trailer, which had a shower down the street a ways. It was an outside shower and lavatory, but we thought that was pretty good.
Eventually, my wife and I got to live in one of the tar-paper shacks, which was converted for temporary use, supposedly, just to take care of the housing problems. But it ended up, those tar-paper shacks remained there for quite a few years, as did some of the Quonsets that were also used for the same purpose. And when got into the tar-paper shacks, though, that was really living, because we had two bedrooms and we had a kitchen and we had a living room. The fact that they were very poorly built didn't seem to make a difference to any of us.
We had a great camaraderie. Practically everyone in my area was an ex-GI, with the net result we still had the spirit that was pre-war, that you've probably heard talked about before, but there was a great feeling of helping one another, and this feeling, the camaraderie was tremendous. There were a few instances where there was a little difference between those few students who hadn't been in the service and those that came out of the service.
One instance you may be interested in was, before the war, freshmen all had to wear puts, little caps, and I remember this one instance, this GI comes out of the administration building, and this kid who hadn't been in the service comes up to this GI and puts this hat on him and says, "Give me a buck, freshman. You've got to wear that hat," and he looked at him, and he stared at him, and that kid, he took that hate off, and that kid took that hat and took off. Now, that shows you the difference in the cultures that took place.
I would say that actually there was a good feeling among the students, whether you were in the service or not in the service. I would also say that the GIs, at least that were there that I knew, and I knew quite a few of them, they were there to get an education and get it fast. They'd spent, like myself, spent three and a half years, and we thought we had to make up for this lost time. It was not a matter of messing around, dinking around with trivia. We were very serious-minded. Many of the traditions, I'm afraid, which I thought were great before the war, myself, and participated in them, we just didn't have time for them.
I held several jobs. I worked in the athletic department in cleaning out the stadium, cleaning out Jenison. I lined the field. We used to line the football field with lime and the baseball field, did all that. Cleaned up Jenison after basketball games.
I played on a tennis team, and I'd played basketball on the varsity at Western, and tennis also at Western, but didn't have the opportunity to play basketball here because the coach wanted people that had four years' eligibility left, and I only had two more years of eligibility, and so I couldn't even go out for the team.

Charnley: Who was coach then?

Shingleton: [Benjamin F.] Van Alstyne, not a very good coach. Not only in my opinion, but others'.
But at any rate, it was an interesting time but it was a great time, too. The people were just terrific, and the faculty, I thought, were great, very understanding of the GI and his dilemma. There were a few women GIs, but for the most part, they were men.
I think that the esprit de corps on campus was just great. John [A.] Hannah, of course, was the president at that time, and as you know, he built a lot of dormitories very rapidly, far quicker than any university, to my knowledge, in the nation. I mean, they'd build a dormitory that normally would take a couple of years to build in the days before the war. When he knew what the enrollments were going to be, he popped those things up very rapidly, in short time. Of course, he had a board that went along with him on a lot of those things, and some of those things, he'd even start working on a new dormitory before he could even get dorm approval. Well, that was John Hannah. You had to understand his style of administration.
I'm one of his admirers, and justifiably so, I think, because there's no question that his leadership at that time was very outstanding. He was definitely the man for the times. It's my personal opinion, and I've heard others say this, and I've heard other educators say this, that when the history of American education is written, John Hannah will go down as one of the great educators for what he did during that era. He really took the bull by the horns and really turned Michigan State into a great university, for one thing. But that was just on the local scene.
A lot of other colleges emulated him in providing housing, which may not seem like a big issue, but it was a major issue, because you couldn't get an education if you couldn't get housing. So he built these things. Of course, you've probably heard of the signs that he put up all over the campus. Haven't you heard about that?

Charnley: No. What were they?

Shingleton: Oh, well, you've got to hear about that. Of course, there were those critics who wondered why he was spending all this money building all these facilities for these students who wanted to come to Michigan State. Well, the fact of the matter, these were all self-liquidating facilities. Anyplace where he was putting up a building, he put up this huge sign, just like a big billboard, and it'd say, "This building is built without taxpayers' money" in big letters all over, and those were all over the campus. At the time, he was building Shaw Hall and McDonel and that whole boulevard of dormitories over there. But he knew the dilemma of the GI, and he really responded to it. He also knew what it took to give them the education they needed. I thought he was really the foremost educational leader in America at the time, for that period.

Charnley: Did you have much personal contact with him at all, at that time?

Shingleton: At that time, no, not as a student, although I came to work for the university. He interviewed me when I was hired. Keep in mind that this university was one of those things where some of us got interviewed before we were hired by Hannah. The department head would make the decision, but Hannah wanted to see who it was before they got on board.

Charnley: He had to pass muster.

Shingleton: Yes, and he still met with just about all the salaried personnel that were hired. I was hired in 1949.

Charnley: What was your area?

Shingleton: I was in personnel. As far as my experience with him in later years, when we were building the Wharton Center [for Performing Arts], I don't know whether you're familiar with my experience there, but we can get into that later if you want to.

Charnley: Sure.

Shingleton: He could make decisions like no other president that I have seen, and he also had a board that operated entirely differently than the boards do today, in different times. There are those who have said that John Hannah would have a hard time operating today with the type of culture we have and the administration that we have and the situation. Well, that's up for discussion.
But the fact of the matter is, for the times, he really knew how to operate, the board had total confidence in him, he knew how to work with the board, he had tremendous success. You put that all together and everybody sort of really thought he was great. As you know, he was called "Uncle John" by the students. He was well liked by everybody.

Charnley: Do you remember anything about that interview that you had, the first job interview?

Shingleton: With John Hannah? No. He was very cordial, I'll say that. He did not, I didn't think, act in any intimidating way, although he had the reputation for being one who could do that very easily. But I never witnessed that. Actually, it was not an interview that you would call a full-blown employment interview. It was more of a courtesy, and he just wanted to see who was coming on board.
The thing about it was, he had his finger on everything that was going on at that university. I think, and this is my opinion, I think that he wanted to see who was hired, even. He went to that kind of detail, to see who was hired, where they were hired, what they were going to do, and would go on from there.

Charnley: That management style.

Shingleton: He had a management style that he knew everything that was going on at that university. Believe me, he knew everything that was going on.

Charnley: What about your first job?

Shingleton: I started out as personnel analyst. One of the reasons that I got to know the university extremely well was that before the war, they'd never had the employees classified, what they called then the nonacademic employees, which would be non-faculty. Len Glander [phonetic], who was my boss, the director--I was assistant director of personnel at that time--they wanted us to classify all the nonacademic positions on campus. Up to that point they'd all been classified and hired and paid according to each department head. Well, you can imagine what a mess it was. Also, during the war they'd also had to hire some pretty marginal people, for the simple reason that there was nobody available for jobs, custodial jobs and some of the more menial jobs, the craftsmen's jobs, and the secretarial jobs, and minor administrative jobs.
So I was hired to go out there and survey all the departments and classify these positions. And then Len Glander and I, who was my boss, as I said, would decide how these people, what their titles would be, what their salary would be, and we'd make adjustments in terms of inequities, of which there were inequities in practically every situation, some gross inequities in terms of salaries. Some people in one area were getting a job. For the same job in another area would be getting half as much. I mean, it was a real hodge-podge administratively.
But for me personally it was a great experience, because I got to meet every dean, every department head on the campus and got to talk with them about issues and meet their personnel. As a result, that served me well for the rest of my career at Michigan State University. But that was a lucky break. Incidentally, Len and I handled the whole classification system, two of us. I don't know how many they have over there now, but that's just to keep it going.

Charnley: More than two, I suspect.

Shingleton: But they've changed it a lot. Yes, I'd say there's more than two. The thing is that it also was a very simple classification system, but the thing is, it worked. We didn't have any strikes as a result of it. Most people, I think, felt that it ended up equitably. You didn't please everybody because some of the salaries were too high, some were too low, and you had to get this implemented. We also had to cut out a few jobs. Some areas there were just too many people. But it was a fascinating job for me, for a new kid on the block. Going into the plumbing shop, I'd spend days there. Or the electrical department. They didn't have cyclotrons in those days, but administrative jobs. We included accountants and those kind of positions. Librarians. That was real hornet's nest, deciding whether that was fish or fowl.

Charnley: Academic or not academic.

Shingleton: Academic or not academic. And, of course, you had different kinds of administrators who had different feelings, and they all felt, you know, everybody was underpaid, they felt. Actually, the rates were very low. We also, at that same time, were working a forty-four hour week. I can remember discussing it with our then-registrar, when the registrar, we told him we felt we had to go to a forty-hour week. Everybody else was on a forty-hour week, and our salaries, we were paying salaries that were just very meager, very low, comparatively speaking.
In order to do this, we also had to survey other employers, you see, to see how compared. We were at the bottom end of the scale practically in every category. And we also had to get, if we were going to be realistic, get on a forty-hour week. Well, I remember in this one instance--of course, most people wanted to go to a forty-hour week, but this particular registrar said, "There's no way we could exist if we didn't open on Saturdays, because this is when the students want to know about Michigan State. This is when they come in to see what we're all about."
He was a wonderful man. I had a lot of respect for that gentleman. But he didn't think we'd ever survive if went to a forty-hour week, but one day, bang, President Hannah says we're going to forty-hour week. We went to a forty-hour week and that was it. And we did the same thing with the classification system. Once we did it, there were some people that, of course, didn't agree with everything that was said, but surprisingly, it flew. You can imagine what it would be like if you went over there and tried that sometime with a bunch of employees.

Charnley: He says we're going to a forty-hour week.

Shingleton: Well, the forty-hour week. I'm talking about the classification system, when we set up these classifications and the salaries, and adjusted all these salaries, up and down and back. It was a great job for a new kid on the block, and that's what I was. And I was the guy that was out, see. Len was in the office. He was my boss. I'd bring back all the data, then we'd talk it over, and say, "This is what we ought to do," and we presented the plan and surprisingly, it was received very well.

Charnley: You were doing the contacts.

Shingleton: I was out on the field, Len was in the shop, but Len was a major contributor. I don't want to underestimate Len's contribution. It was a joint effort. It was a fascinating job to start out with.

Charnley: How long were you involved in personnel, in that area?

Shingleton: I was in personnel for--I've forgotten now. Those sort of run together, but I was there for quite a few years.

Charnley: What was your next job?

Shingleton: Well, here. Get that slip of paper over there. We're going back sixty, seventy years, you know.

Charnley: Half century. You ended up in placement.

Shingleton: I ended up with several jobs. If we take the whole thing, just running over it, if you want to know, I came on as assistant director of personnel, then I went as assistant director of placement. When I was in placement, I was asked by the College of Engineering, the dean of engineering, to go to India as administrative officer for a project in India. So I was the advance man, going to Madras, India, and Puna, India. I took my whole family and set up a project there, and then we brought over all the faculty and got them housing. I handled the administrative side of it. That was another fascinating experience for a young kid, and great for the family.

Charnley: How old were your children?

Shingleton: My children were three, eight, and eleven. They were young. Prior to that, I was asked if I wanted to go to Vietnam when the Vietnam thing started warming up, but I turned it down because Tom, our youngest, had just been born and I said, "Sorry, but no thanks."
But that was a wonderful thing, again, personally. Our family just got a tremendous amount from that experience, and that's one of the reasons I was always a strong advocate of international experiences for students, because I saw the value to our family, and was a strong advocate way back in those days, which was 1961 and '62, when we were in India.
So then I was there, and then I came back and worked with Jack Breslin. He was secretary to the board at that time and I was assistant to the secretary of the board of trustees, and worked there for a while. Then, to tell you the truth, that was sort of a--better not put it in the book.

Charnley: That was a tough time?

Shingleton: No. It was a dull job. I was doing nothing but flunky work and I told Jack about it. Well, then the director of placement job opened up and he said, "How would you like to go to placement?" and I said, "I'll take it." He said, "Yes, but don't you think you ought to think it over?" I said, "I'll take it." And he said, "Okay, you got it," so I then became director of placement.
While I was director of placement, of course, I had a number of other requests by presidents to do certain jobs, which included being acting director of intercollegiate athletics, when we got put on probation, which was an interesting experience unto itself. I always kept placement, because placement was my thing. These other jobs, I was glad to help out when they ran into these situations that warranted someone else's help, but I always requested that I keep placement, because that was where I felt I could make the greatest contribution. But anyway, after that, I'm still in placement now and then I worked there for a long time, well, actually, until I retired, but before that I was asked by Dr. Hannah to work with him on the Wharton Center. They were running low on getting money for the development, or for paying and starting building the Wharton Center. So I was asked to come in with John Hannah on that. He asked me to come over.
An interesting story there. He called me up, said, "Jack, I want to come over and see you."
I said, "Mr. Hannah, you don't come over and see me. I'll come over and see you."
I knew something was up, though, when he said that, and so I went over to see him and he outlined what the problem was. They had a big problem with getting the funding for the Wharton Center. And he'd been asked by then-President Ed [Edgar L.] Harden to--he'd just come back from the World Food Congress and he was going to take it easy for a while, and Ed Harden says, "Look, we're in trouble. We need some help. Will you please see if you can help us dig out of this hole to get this funding?" So reluctantly, he says, "Yes, I will, but I'd like Shingleton to help me."
And so I'm talking with Hannah that day. I'll never forget that as long as I live. We're sitting like this over a coffee table. He lays out what we've got to do and what he wants me to do, and I said, "Jeez, Dr. Hannah, I'm a lousy fundraiser. I've got placement. I've got my hands full with placement." I ticked off five different reasons why this is not for me.
And he looks at me. This is Hannah. He says, "You missed the point."
I said, "What do you mean, I missed the point? I just gave you five reasons."
He says, "The university needs us. Now, damn it, let's get on with it."
Now, if you see that, that's John Hannah. And you know what? "But I'm going to keep my office over in placement," I said.
He says, "No, you can have an office next to me. You can keep your office in placement. You can stay with placement, but you're going to have your office next to me."
So I had an office next to him, and then we had eight glorious months, about that, I've forgotten how many months it was, but where very often he'd come into my office and he'd look out the window. It was sort of a side view of the campus. He'd start musing and talk about events and things.
He and I hit if off pretty well together, as you can tell. He told me stories that just boggled your mind, some of the things that transpired and some of the things that happened. Never boastful, and yet he was head of USAID for four years, he was, you know, all those things, and he was head of the World Food Congress after he left. He served, I think, seven Presidents of the United States. We talked about so many things that he shared with me, that it was just a wonderful experience to have had just the opportunity to work with him. We had a great time.

Charnley: What was his key strategy in raising the money for the project?

Shingleton: We had a strategy, but we changed the strategy. We're on tape here. I'd just as soon not discuss that.

Charnley: Okay, all right. I didn't know if it was a personal one or a leverage one, but that's all right. That's certainly part of the ground rules.

Shingleton: Hannah says, "We've got to get it done." I'd say the strategy, I can say this much, the strategy was to focus on John Hannah as the person who was soliciting the money. John Hannah's name was so revered that people wanted to contribute, and we defied some of the rules on development procedures, I mean the traditional way, because neither one of us knew a lot about it.
But he'd go out. One time, I'll tell you one little story. It's typical of him. He went out to this one place, saw this person, and I asked, "Where are you going today?"
He said, "Oh, I'm going down to so-and-so."
I said, "Oh, okay. What do you expect?"
He says, "Well, this guy, he owes me a few chits. I helped him a lot when I was in office. And he's a good man. I'm just going to go down and say hello to him."
So he goes down and says hello to him, comes back, and comes back into my office as soon as he got back. I said, "Well, how did you do?"
And he says, "I don't know. Nothing happened."
The next day he was leaving for Germany, and so he takes off for Germany. It was about three or four days later--we had a joint secretary--the secretary comes into my office, "Mr. Shingleton, look at this!"
And here's a letter, "John Hannah, MSU, East Lansing, Michigan."

[Begin Tape 1, Side 2]

Shingleton: ...tell me the personality of Hannah.

Charnley: And his dedication to the university.

Shingleton: Oh, his dedication was total, total.

Charnley: Was he a good judge of people, in your mind?

Shingleton: I thought he was a very good judge of people and I thought he relied on a handful of people that he had confidence in to really get a job done. Yes, I would say he was an excellent judge of people.

Charnley: Who were some of those really part of the core group?

Shingleton: Well, Phil May stands out as one of the top guys. Incidentally, he's still alive. Have you interviewed him?

Charnley: No, not yet.

Shingleton: Phil May. He's getting up there in his years. Phil May was his vice president for finance, and Phil May, when they had these buildings--you know, we had to finance these buildings. Well, it was the genius of Phil May that he was able to get the money to finance all these buildings, because they cost a lot of money, and we weren't in that ball park financially, in the finance circles, at least from my humble observations.
But somehow or another, with his financing, they built these buildings and it just went right by everybody in the country. To my knowledge, I don't know another university that even came close to doing what John Hannah and Phil May did, in that time frame. He had some key people. I'd say Phil, in that era that we're talking about, Jim [James H.] Denison was also another key player. He was behind the scenes. You hardly ever heard of Jim Denison, but Jim Denison was the type of person who, I think, John Hannah relied on for talking things over with.
Jack Breslin was very much of a favorite of John Hannah's, and I had the privilege of just working for Jack Breslin for twenty-five years, personally, and he was the finest boss anyone could ever expect to have. Breslin was really a favorite of John Hannah's, and rightfully so. Jack Breslin served the university extremely well, though I would put Breslin there with Phil May.
Emory Foster [phonetic], in the dormitories and food services, he was head of that in those growth years. Milt Milder was absolutely a big player on the academic side. Hannah recruited Milt Milder when he was in the military. He happened to be overseas and ran into him and met him and was impressed with him and got him to come to Michigan State.
[Lloyd C.] Emmons was another very strong one. He's now long dead, but Dean Emmons was a confidant of Hannah's in those early years and helped structure, I'd say, the academic side. Milder and Emmons were very, very strong. We also had some deans that were strong, but now we get down into lower levels, and I don't know that you want me to get into all that stuff. But in those formative years, those were pretty big players.
Another big player and who was in favor with John Hannah, especially for what he contributed in the early years of his work here, was "Biggy" [George] Mann. He felt Biggie Mann and the football program--but again, you've got the genius of John Hannah behind it, recognizing what football could do for a school like Michigan State, and he gave Biggie Mann carte blanche to run a football program and, boy, he ran one, and he won. He was no small player in getting us into the Big Ten. There was more to it than that, but that helped get us in the Big Ten.
Of course, John Hannah, when we got in the Big Ten--I was trying to think. I think, was it Les [Leslie W.] Scott was our--no, [Harold B.] Tukey, Dr. Tukey was our faculty rep. You should check this out to be sure, but I think Dr. Tukey was the faculty rep at the time we got in the Big Ten, and the faculty representative was very, very helpful at that time.
Those were dynamic years, I'll tell you. See, that's the beauty of my work with Michigan State, is that I was there through all this grand and glorious development, growth, and emerging as one of the great universities, and to be part of it is really something that a lot of people don't have that kind of opportunity. So maybe I gild the lily a little bit, but I really believe these things and think that these years that I'm talking about were very significant in the development of this university, believe me. Now, you can't keep going at that rate forever, but he certainly laid the foundation for a great university.

Charnley: In dealing with the issue of athletics, which you mentioned before, you were involved in tennis, you said.

Shingleton: Well, I played tennis on the tennis team, yes, but then I was acting athletic director. They gave me ten minutes' notice to get in there and run the athletic department when they got put on probation. Breslin called me up and he says, "I want you to be acting athletic director. We just fired Bruce Smith."
I said, "What are you talking about?"
He says, "I want you to go over there and run the athletic department till we get this probation thing straightened out."
I said, "How much time have I got before we--?"
He says, "You've got ten minutes to get over there."
I said, "Well, I can't get over there in ten minutes."
No, this is how it moved, honest to God. I did get over there the next morning, although there's a lot of intrigue involved in that stuff.
But that was an experience, running the athletic department, when you're on probation, with the media at your doorstep every minute of the day. We were headlines in the Detroit papers and Lansing Journal day after day, and it just kept going on and on. Very difficult. Of course, [Clifton R.] Wharton [Jr.] was president at that time, and he'll tell you about it. Didn't he tell you about it?

Charnley: Some.

Shingleton: He didn't tell you it all, I'm sure of that.

Charnley: That'll probably come out in the book, in his book.

Shingleton: I doubt if it'll all come out, but he's the guy to talk about being on probation. He could also tell you about some of the mistakes that were made.

Charnley: Why do you think Jack Breslin picked you?

Shingleton: You'd have to ask Wharton who picked me, because I got two answers. I never asked anybody. I worked for Breslin and Breslin called me, when he told me to go over there. But then I talked with Wharton and I said, "Do I run this thing?" Because I knew what the mess was. I had a locker with the coaches all the years, because I knew the coaches. I knew the athletic department pretty well. And I always had a locker with the coaches over the years. I played a lot of handball and stuff like that with them, so I knew it was a jungle.
So I asked Dr. Wharton, I said, "Do I have charge of this, of every function, what is required?"
He says, "Yes." And I'd be interested in knowing what Wharton would say, who asked me to go over there. I think Wharton did, but Breslin may have recommended me. I don't know which. But I know I talked with both of them before I took it.

Charnley: Besides the media you had to deal with, what were the other constituent groups that made that difficult at that time?

Shingleton: What made it difficult was that you had a situation with the coaches and then the factors that were involved in the probation. Some of these things were very minor, as far as I saw it, but you had to take what you had to deal with. The president and the board felt that the coaches had to be terminated, and so the AD has to handle that.

Charnley: You had to do the firing?

Shingleton: Well, yes, I guess you--the way it worked was that I--but we worked it out in a way that I thought was equitable. I thought it was equitable, given the circumstances, but you had to know all the circumstances. I mean, there are those who will say it was not equitable. These are the problems you get into. Is it equitable? We did give them a year's salary, which some people thought was too generous. Some people thought it wasn't enough.
As far as my personal views were, I thought some of the NCAA violations that they cited were just absolutely nonsense. But we still had to abide by them. Then with the media, everybody has a different opinion on everything that you do, with the net result that you're getting all kinds of observations on what should happen regarding the coaches, what should happen regarding the university, what damage does it do to the university, how do you minimize the damage to the university. Then you've got the financial aspects of it, you've got a lot of details that--I can't talk to the details that much.
If anybody wants to speak to it, let Dr. Wharton speak to it. He knows more about it than I do. I was over there to run the department while we were on probation, and let me tell you, that was no gravy train, because when you have to fire the whole football staff and keep them, you know, so they understand. I think we did do it. I thought they were treated equitably, given the circumstances. We had certain parameters, see. The university had certain parameters we had to work within, and if we were going to even be in the conference, I mean, it was pretty serious business, and we had to take it seriously.
I'd say handling the media was one of the big problems, and also handling the department when it's in turmoil like that, although I had a very fine--the guy I asked to help me was Underwood, Dennis Underwood, and he was very helpful in administering it. The former athletic director was not much help in the transition, which you could expect. He felt he'd been hard done by. That remains for others to decide. There are a lot of elements in the situation.

Charnley: Generally, how did you deal with alumni at that time?

Shingleton: There are an awful lot of alumni out there that are ready to give you advice. No matter where I went, I didn't lack for advice. I got advice from everybody. Everybody had an opinion. Of course, they were reading the papers and getting certain information, much of it accurate, some of it not accurate, and they were basing their thoughts on that kind of information. I had to speak to that. I had to give a lot of talks, trying to keep, you might say, the home fires burning. When I say "home fires," I mean, you'd go out and have to talk to alumni groups and say, "Well, here's the situation," and I adopted a policy that we'd try to be honest with them.

Charnley: You made yourself available to them?

Shingleton: Oh, yes. I spoke quite a bit to various groups.

Charnley: Who succeeded as the director of athletics?

Shingleton: Joe Curry, who was a great athletic director. I think he was one of the best, if not the best, athletic director we've ever had, as long as I was at the university. He was really a good athletic director, and did a marvelous job in the people he selected and so forth. In fact, he wanted me to go work with him.

Charnley: Where did he go after he left MSU?

Shingleton: He went to be commissioner of the WAC conference. That's the Western Athletic Conference. That's what he really wanted. Joe and I got along very well. I really felt he was just the right guy for the job at that time.
You know, here's one thing you've got to understand. There are different people for different times. You can take a person that excels here and you plunk them here and it could maybe be disastrous, and vice versa. As I look back and reflect, especially in the presidents, you need certain people for certain times and you can't say that this person is necessarily going to be a great president at this time, because the culture has changed so dramatically. I think [M. Peter] McPherson's doing a marvelous job, and I think Hannah did a great job.
Hannah, I'm sure, with the board that we have today, would find it a different ball game than with the board that he had. Just like McPherson, if he were back over in those days, would find it a different ball game in terms of things that can be done and so forth. Both of them outstanding presidents, in my mind's eye, but the right men for the right times, in my opinion.

Charnley: Were you surprised when Hannah left, at the time that he did, or were you seeing evidence of that?

Shingleton: Let me put it this way. I hated to see him go, and so did many others.

Charnley: I think there were many that shared your opinion at that time. When you went back to placement, after the athletic, obviously, you stayed down--

Shingleton: No, no, I kept the placement office going. I still ran it. I kept my office. I always did. In fact, the alumni office deal, when I had to go over there with that alumni thing, that mess, no, I always kept my placement office. I always made sure I kept that.

Charnley: In the field, in placement services, how was that affected in the sixties and seventies? Did that change significantly during your term there?

Shingleton: Yes, that was a tremendous era. Well, Wharton, did he talk to you about the sixties and seventies, when we had all the demonstrations? Most of them took place in the placement office. I handled a lot of those. In fact, I just saw Dick Burnett this morning. He was in the police department at that time. He was head of the police department, and we reminisced a little bit about some of the incidences that occurred.

Charnley: I was at Central Michigan during that time.

Shingleton: Well, you probably heard about us.

Charnley: Well, we did. We did, indirectly. Was it because of the recruiting that was going on?

Shingleton: It was not against the placement office per se, it was against--like, we would have the CIA interviewing, we'd have the Marines, we'd have G.E., we'd have Dow Chemical, we'd have organizations that were heavily involved with the war effort in Vietnam. What they were doing was not demonstrating against the placement office. The primary issue, the way we followed it, and philosophically I think this was very important, we determined, "This is the way we're going to handle it," and a lot of other universities followed the same principle.
The principle we followed was, the activists could demonstrate. They could demonstrate in the public areas, but they could not deny the student that wants to talk with a given employer, given that that employer wants to talk to that student. In other words, if an employer wants to talk to a student, and this student says, "I want to talk with this employer," this activist can demonstrate that he doesn't want that to happen, he can even hand this student some brochures in a public area, or he can make known his views, the activist, but he cannot deny the right of this individual to speak to this entity here. In fact, the ACLU even supported us on that, although there were some troubled times and we had some strong issues, and they gained momentum and they went over a period of several years. There were times when it got pretty hairy.

Charnley: Do you remember the first incident? Were you prepared for it? Did you anticipate it?

Shingleton: Well, very often there would be publicity. It depends. The FBI would come in or the CIA would come in and say, "Look, you're going to get hit by this particular group."

Charnley: They knew that?

Shingleton: They had the information, yes. Well, our police department might have it. Or they may tell us, or threaten us, "They're going to hit you." I remember one time somebody brought in some chicken tripe and threw it on the Marines' desk and took off. We had skirmishes. We had one skirmish right in the office. I mean, physical. Oh, there were several physical ones.
One of the first ones happened--oh, well, yes, that's interesting. I do remember when we had the first incident. We were having what amounted to a career fair, and we had employers from all over the United States. This was a big event. We had thousands that would attend this. The Marine Corps was in recruiting, along with hundreds. We had the biggest fairs. They don't have them like that these days, but it was a huge thing. We took over the whole Union Building, and Boeing was there, and this and that and the other.
But anyway, in this particular instance, the Marine Corps was on the second floor, and they were there and they had a booth. You've got to get the scene. There's a booth, everybody's at their booth, all of them down, and we're covering the whole Union. I mean, the whole Union, the basement, the lobby, the place where the kids sit, and the second floor and all over. The ballroom, they're all over.
So the activists decide they're going to key on the Marine Corps. So I remember there was about two or three Marines at the booth, and a lot of kids were interested in talking about it, you know, because a lot of them were being drafted and they didn't know what their status was, and they wanted to get information, and we felt that that was a reasonable thing to allow our students to do, again following the principle that if the student wants to talk to them and they didn't want to talk to them, they can do it. And this guy who doesn't want them to do it, he can make a noise about it in a public area, but he's not damn well going to stop that interview. You understand?

Charnley: Yes.

Shingleton: Can you see that there might be some conflict there?

Charnley: Yes.

Shingleton: So these activists decide that they're going to come up and they'll get right in the face of these Marines, and they'll just call them everything under the sun. These Marines are standing at parade rest, because they are under orders to just, no confrontation of a physical type, and these guys are tough cookies. They're standing at parade rest, and these guys are just right there, just bugging the heck out of them.
So I get to them, I tried to explain, "Here's what you're going to do. Now, if you want to talk civilly to the Marine Corps--"
See, they will say, "Well, I want to talk to the Marine Corps like the other guys want to talk to the Marine Corps," but it's a little different.

Charnley: A sham.

Shingleton: I said, "Well, you can talk to them, but this is what we've got." So you've got this thing, and the Marine Corps is really taking it, they're really taking it, and they're handling themselves well, under the circumstances, because I know their inner feeling was, they could just blast this guy and knock him right through the wall. And they were physically able to, too.
So I said, "Now, you're upsetting this whole event that we've got here. If you've got something you want to discuss pertaining to your personal thing, as far as the Marine Corps, fine, and you can also express your views in the public area. Where this booth is, is not the public area. And now you will stop doing this."
So I give them one warning. They don't give a damn. I said, "All right, now." And I walk away, see.
So I come back ten minutes later and they're still going at it. By this time, I've called the police and the police are there, and they're standing by saying, "What are we going to do?"
I thought, "We'd better go and see John Hannah about this." So I said, "I'm going to give you one more warning. I'm giving you twenty minutes to stop this action that you're taking that's taking place, and we'll go on from there." Bang. They could care less.
So I hightailed it over to the president's office. I think the chief of police was with me, too. I'm sure he was. So I see Hannah in his office. He's over in the old building. You know where his office was before?

Charnley: Linton Hall?

Shingleton: Yes, Linton Hall. I go up there and I say, "Okay, here's the situation." I explained it all to him and he said, "Well," he's mulling it over, see. The chief of police, I think, had something to say about it and we tried to describe this as best we could, because you've got to remember, we've got a time frame, too. And he says, "Well, you've asked them to leave?"
I said, "I've asked them to leave, and I've told them that they're disrupting this whole program. I told them what they could do, and that gives them a chance to have their voice, too." Explained it as best as I could to Hannah.
And here's Hannah again. He quotes some true Hannahisms, in my eyes. "Well, I guess we've got to decide who's going to run the university, don't we. You give them one more warning. If they don't obey, take them out, and we'll charge them and we'll take them to court."
Well, the one guy then lays down. I go and do this, give them the order, tell them. This one guy lays down right in from of me. He's not going to move. And we've got a professor who's egging him on. He's pro-activist, which might--these professors sometimes--they're nice guys, but in this case, I didn't appreciate it.
Now what are you going to do? The guy refuses to get up. Chief of police orders his men to pick the guy. They took that guy and they dragged him all the way down the steps, by his feet, all the way down the Union steps, out into the police car, hauled him off, and we took him to court. And we went to court a number of times because of that kind of treatment or if they did some physical abuse. We had, one time, a guy, right up close, throw an apple and hits a police officer right in the face. Could have blinded him. I mean, the tensions were pretty high.
The thing about it was, and from my perspective, I understood what they wanted to do, but sometimes they got out of hand, in terms of how they wanted to do it. I got information from the FBI and from the CIA that there's outsiders that are setting this stuff all up. One time we had 300 police on standby for one demonstration. We had to have them on standby because their information was that they're really going to tear this place apart.

Charnley: Did that happen?

Shingleton: No. Damn right it didn't happen. It didn't happen, not on my watch. They were going to throw me out of my office, but it didn't happen on my watch. I could tell you a million stories, even about the presidents that come over.
But Breslin, the thing that was beautiful about it all, was old Jack Breslin, he always backed me. And I could tell you something about Wharton, too. He had a plan, but it was a pretty unfortunate--it wasn't unfortunate, it just couldn't work, and so I just disregarded it, and then we took it from there. And you know what happened?

Charnley: What happened?

Shingleton: We did what I was going to do. If I'd have gone through with what he recommended, hell, I would have been--he wanted me to go through the chain of command, and these guys, I'm supposed to have a crowd milling around, ready to tear the place apart, and I'm supposed to say, "Hold it now, you guys. I've got to go over and talk to this vice president and he's got to talk with so-and-so and he's got to then call the police, and then--but don't do anything till--hold it." Well, hell, when you're in the middle of this, when they're ready to tear you apart, you can't say, "I've got to turn this over to a committee." He learned. Well, the thing about it, he was only on the job seven days. It was only a few days when he called a meeting, how he was going to handle the next demonstration. Well, he didn't know. But he learned.

[Begin Tape 2, Side 1]

Shingleton: The people that worked for Michigan State, they did the best they knew how, but some of them didn't know what the hell they were doing.

Charnley: Interesting way to look at.
When the last tape ended, we were talking about the activism of the sixties and how some of the demonstrations were focused on the placement office. I didn't know if you thought your combat experience would come into play when you were in the placement office, but it sounds like it did, indirectly.

Shingleton: Oh, well, that's right. Being a pilot, the one thing I learned when I was in the service was you learn how to make a decision and you learn how to make it fast, and you don't have any committee. And that's exactly what you had with these situations. And it was true in the athletic department, too. I mean, it isn't something where you had to resolve things.
I had one guy--well, I could give you instances, but, you know, you take over the athletic department. One guy comes in and says, "Look, I know more about athletics than you do. I should be in that job instead of you."
Well, see, how do you handle it? I listened to him and then I said, "Well, you know what? You're standing there and I'm sitting here. Now, you get out there, and you do your job, and if you're unhappy with it or you don't like what I'm doing, we can sure take care of that in a hurry. Now, get out there." That's the way you handle it.
I couldn't call up Wharton and say, "Oh, wait a minute, Dr. Wharton, I've got this situation." And it was me or him, and I always felt that--that's why I felt that in these kind of jobs, when you get that athletic thing, or you get the things I had, just like Breslin says, "You handle it, Jack," because he knows what it's about. Jack was former placement director.

Charnley: He anticipated that you'd be able to handle it.

Shingleton: I don't know whether he did or not. One thing he did, Jack, as I told you, he always backed me. I was satisfied it was worked out okay, and that's the way it is. That's Jack Shingleton.

Charnley: The other presidents that you worked with, [M.] Cecil Mackey came after Dr. [Edgar L.] Harden.

Shingleton: Yes, very smart man.

Charnley: What were your main contacts with Dr. Mackey?

Shingleton: Aren't you aware?

Charnley: Well, if you could tell for the record.

Shingleton: You aren't familiar with the alumni situation, when the alumni association wanted to get rid of him?

Charnley: Well, I am, but it's interesting to hear your view. What was the situation with the alumni association?

Shingleton: Well, Dr. Mackey is the man that could give you the information on this better than anyone.

Charnley: And I haven't interviewed him yet.

Shingleton: Dr. Mackey, when he was president, I thought he was a very sharp person, but for some reason or another, the alumni, which had become an independent association, didn't like some of the things that were happening at the university, so they decided that they'd write articles in their magazine and so forth that were their side of the picture, in terms of the running of the university. And Mackey said, "Well, look, I think that here in the future when you put out that magazine, that I should clear it, so that I can see what's happening. We've got to work together."
Well, that didn't fly too well. You've got to remember, the alumni association, which has always been under the umbrella of the university, had just only not too much earlier been made an independent unit outside of the university. Are you familiar with that?

Charnley: Yes.

Shingleton: Well, then you know--I shouldn't have gone into detail like this. Well, when they refused to do that, then the board and Dr. Mackey asked me if I would see if I could help out in trying to get this thing resolved, see if we can't work it out amicably. Well, you see how I get in the middle of situations? It's getting to be a habit now.
And so I said, "Okay, I'll try and do what I can." So I tried to talk to Jack Kenney, who was then the director of alumni relations and Jack, who's a decent guy, but he didn't believe that they should feel that they had to be censored by the president, that they should have the autonomy that if they want to criticize the university, that's their prerogative. And he and his board were adamant.
Well, to make a long story short, after I looked at it and talked with Dr. Mackey, and Dr. Mackey, I thought, was pretty reasonable, trying to work it out with them, they were pretty adamant that they were going to retain that autonomy. I said to Jack and his board, I said, "The thing you don't understand is where the ultimate power resides. Now, if you don't understand that and you've decided that you're going to remain adamant, you're vulnerable." Well, they didn't think so.
Well, then the board--and I sat in on that session when they said, "We're nonaffiliated with the alumni association and we're going to set up a new association," and then they asked me to set it up.
So I said, "No, I'm going to stay with placement."
They said, "Will you help set it up?"
So I said, "Yes, I'll do that." And I actually recommended Chuck Webb, who became the, I call it the executive director, of alumni relations.
They asked me to set it up and organize it. It needed a complete reorganization, because the way it was working, in terms of its function, as I looked at it, it really needed to be overhauled. I won't go into the details, except to say that we developed a totally different format, which it now has, and it's proven to be very successful. Of course, the association has grown by leaps and bounds.

Charnley: Was that when Bob Bough [phonetic] joined at that time?

Shingleton: Yes, Bob Bough, who's a very sharp guy. Do you know Bob?

Charnley: Yes. Have lunch with him regularly.

Shingleton: He's a sharp guy. He's co-author with me on my book, College to Career. He's a very, very sharp guy, and a good writer. In fact, Chuck, when he was looking for a person for that position to head up the magazine, talked with me about Bob, and I said, "He's the perfect guy." I was happy to say, "Good move." And he's turned out to be a good person.

Charnley: And Keith Williams succeeded Chuck Webb as the director, or was there someone in between?

Shingleton: Yes, then Keith came in as assistant director, under Chuck, for a while. Then McPherson promoted Chuck to vice president for development, and Keith then came in. That's the way it's worked, and it's worked out very well. They've got a program over there that, compared to what it used to be, substantially is very good.

Charnley: Was President Mackey pleased with the suggestions that you were able to come up with, or your job in that?

Shingleton: Well, he offered me the job.

Charnley: You knew you had a home to go back to.

Shingleton: But no, I really wasn't the guy for the job. I told you that I believed I could make my greatest contribution at Michigan State in placement, and it was a very rewarding career. I could help more people there and do more good and follow the philosophy that I have of a career, and my wife and I talked about that many times. I had a great spouse and a great career, and when you've got those two in harmony, you've got the world by the tail. I told that to the kids when I counseled them on careers, I believed it then, I believe it today, and I think it's still a paramount foundation, or cornerstone, upon which people should build their lives. It's very simple, but so many people, they've got to get big titles, make more money, and they could do this and that and the other. They're following a false god. Now you're getting my philosophy on life.

Charnley: That's good.

Shingleton: For me, it couldn't be better.

Charnley: Were you a sports fan, in the best sense of the word? You had regular football tickets, basketball, everything?

Shingleton: Yes, I've had season tickets since--I've gone to football games ever since I was in college. And basketball. I've got season tickets for football, basketball, and hockey, and I follow the tennis team regularly, and all the sports. I follow all the sports. Some people call me a jock. I don't think I'm a jock, in the sense of a coach. I wouldn't be a coach. I think there are certain characteristics, which I don't have, that make a coach a good coach.
But I enjoy athletics, I support athletics, and I think athletics are great for Michigan State. I think at the present time it's getting too commercial. It think at the rate it's going, it'll fall of its own weight eventually, because they're getting too far afield from what a university is all about. I think you've got to have an athletic program, especially for a public university like Michigan State, and I've always been a strong advocate of a strong athletic program, but I can't say that I buy into the commercialism that we're currently in, and headed for. More importantly, what we're headed for. The way it's going, I can't believe it's--

Charnley: The Nike swoosh on the football jerseys now.

Shingleton: Everything's so commercial and the salaries, and the whole thing is money. We've lost, I think, sight of--keep in mind, the umbrella is the university. What's the function of the university? Is it to put out a professional football team? Well, that's about what it boils down to.

Charnley: How was it that you became a board of trustees? What's that story?

Shingleton: Oh, jeez. Well, I've always said I'm not a politician, I never was in politics before. Well, I did run for freshmen president when I was in college, and I got elected president of the freshmen class back at Western, but that's the only political experience I had. But then--well, actually, what happened was, Senator Sederberg [phonetic] was head of the Education Committee downtown. I just had dinner with him last week, in fact. He's still a friend. When he was going out of office, he came to me, he said, "Jack, how would like to run for the Senate? I'm going to hang it up down there, but I think if you'd run in my place, I think you'd stand a chance of winning."
I said, "I'm sorry, but that's not my bag. I'm not a politician and I don't think I could stomach that very long."
He says, "Well, I'd like to see you--" So that passed and that was the end of it, so he had my opinion of being a politician.
So then subsequently I had some faculty, actually, that came to me and said, "Would you run for the board of trustees, Jack? Because this place needs some improving, and we think someone like you should run."
I said, "No, I agree that there are certain things that could be improved upon, but I don't think that's my thing at this time."
But then, subsequently, Sederberg comes back to me and he says, "Jack, would you be willing to go down and talk with one of the former board members, to see what being a board member is?" Because first of all, he says, "Would you be willing to run for the board?"
I said, "Oh, jeez, Bill, I don't know whether that's my thing."
He said, "Well, what do you think about the university?"
I said, "I think it needs some improvements."
And he said, "Well, you think it needs improvements. What are you going to do about it?"

Charnley: Sounds like John Hannah's argument.

Shingleton: But if you know Jack Shingleton, too, you throw that at me, then you've got something, because like John Hannah said. Remember what I told you?

Charnley: Yes.

Shingleton: That is really the key. That's your button to push. Well, it is for me, but I think that's the button--that's what he got all these guys that would dedicate their lives. They'd do the same thing. I'm not alone in being--you don't know me very well, but I'll tell you, I am a dedicated person to Michigan State University, and I'm very proud of it and it's been wonderful for me.
So anyway. And oh, boy, so I said, "As a courtesy."
He said, "will you just go down and talk to her?"
I said, "Okay," so I go down and talk.
She's saying, "Look, Jack, they need you" and this, that, and the other, gives me all the arguments. And then I find out, they said, "Well, would you just talk with Engler [phonetic]?"
Now, he was not governor at that time. He was twenty-eight points behind, in fact. His chances of winning were worse than [George W.] Bush's. He's only fourteen points behind. Engler was twenty-eight points behind. "As a courtesy, would you just go and talk to him?"
So I said, "Okay." Well, I found out they've already got the interview set up the next morning at nine o'clock.
So I go over there the next morning and talk with Engler, who was then still in the legislature, and he said what they wanted. He said, "Would you be interested in running for the board?"
I was flattered to be considered, but I didn't know if I really thought it was my cup of tea. And then he talked to me about a number of things, and a couple of things were opposed to what he believes, abortion and a couple of other things. But anyway, I was very candid with him, and he with me. He had his chief of staff there, and after about an hour's interview he said, "Well, I'll tell you what. We want you to run for the board and we'd like you to run. Will you accept?"
I said, "I don't accept a decision like this without talking it over with my wife. I need twenty-four hours."
He said, "I've got people that want this job in the worst way. They've been bugging me for years. At four o'clock, I told a man I'd give him a decision, who's a top person, I'd let him know by four o'clock whether I'm going to let him run for the board."
I said, "Well, you go ahead and let him run. Go ahead. Offer him the job. I take twenty-four hours on a decision like this. I always have, I've always done it." Except I'd learned it from the athletic thing and some of those other jobs. And I said, "Not only that, I wouldn't take it unless my wife and I talked about it, because that's a demanding job and the wife is definitely involved in something like that."
He looks at his chief of staff, they shook their heads. I remember they thought, "This guy is something. We haven't run into this kind of a character before."
So I said, "All right. Twenty-four hours from now, yes, I'll let you know."
So I came home, and my wife and I talked, and we talked until the wee hours of the morning. Here's what happened. I said, "First of all, Muss [phonetic], what do you think of it?"
She said, "If you want it, I want it."
I said, "No, do you want me to have it?"
She says, "If you want it, I could enjoy it, I think." Okay.
Then I said, "Well, you know, I've always told our kids, one person can make a difference. And now here am I, faced with something. I don't think everything's going hunky-dory over there, and now I've got a chance to at least run for it. What kind of a guy am I, after I've told my kids for all my life that one kid makes a difference, one person makes a difference?" Now that made me think, Jesus, you can't run away from something like that.
Thirdly--well, anyway, I'm going off. But to make a long story short, we finally said, "Okay, let's go with it."
I called him up at nine o'clock the next morning, which was exactly twenty-four hours. I said, "I'll run."
He said, "Okay." We went down, and I went to the convention. I didn't even know what a convention was like. Went around and met everybody. Of course, when he said he wanted someone to run, it was tantamount to being on there, and quite honestly, in a lot of ways, anybody that runs for the board is on the coattails of whoever the governor is, whoever gets elected governor. So anyway, I ran. He won and I won and then I was on the board for eight years.

Charnley: You had retired prior to that?

Shingleton: Oh, yes. I'd retired about a year and a half before that. My wife and I, we had some plans after I retired that we were able to do some traveling and things and did our thing there, so that worked out very nicely.

Charnley: The service on the board, obviously, was at a time when the controversy between Coach [George] Perles and the president over the athletic directorship and the football coach. What was your take on that?

Shingleton: Well, I tried to get DiBiaggio and Perles together. They weren't talking when I got into the act. But Perles called me up one day and he said, "I'd like to work out something. DiBiaggio won't talk to me." Because they'd gotten on such bitter terms that they wouldn't even talk. Did DiBiaggio tell you that?

Charnley: Yes.

Shingleton: This isn't known. People don't know about this. So I said, "Well, what is it that you want?"
He said, "I want to work out something so that I can still be there, and I don't have to be athletic director and football coach." Because that was what was one of the big hooks. I didn't believe he should have both jobs, but I was willing to give him a chance for one more year, if DiBiaggio wanted it. But if DiBiaggio didn't want it, then it's out.
So I go and talk with DiBiaggio. "I'm not going to talk to Perles."
"Okay." And then I said, "Well, John, you know, I think you ought to." I think I said it like that, because it was in the best interest, in my eyes, anyway, of the university, and he saw that.
He said, "Okay."
So I talked with our chairman of the board, and it was Tom [Thomas] Reed, and we set up a meeting. We had a meeting. Reed, DiBiaggio, Perles, and me. Now, Perles